Its all over ESPN. New Rams defensive coordinator Greg Williams is under investigation for allegedly placing a bounty system on opposing players while with the Saints, Redskins, and Bills.

I really want to wait until all the information comes out, so for right now I am a little on the fence. Maybe your opinions will help sway me one way or the other.

The NFL claims that it has evidence of a bounty system put in place with incentives for knocking opposing players out of games, big hits, etc. Williams claims it was an incentive, pay for play system with dollar amounts for big hits, tackles on fourth down, turnovers, ect.

I, for one, think that the intentional injuring of players has no place in sports. If that is indeed what the system was, then I think Williams should be removed from the league on a permanent basis.

On the other hand, I have a hard time believing that this was happening for a few reasons. The first is that the NFL has been cracking down on illegal play with heavy fines. Why would a player risk recieving a $1,500 to $5,000 fine to get a couple hundred bucks? Also, the facts dont lie. On ESPN, it was reported that the Saints defense was one of the least penalized defenses in the league and had one of the least amounts of fines for illegal hits in the last three years. That doesnt add up.

Also, Drew Breese is one of the leading player representatives in the league. Why would a team and league leader in player rights allow this to go on in his lockerroom?

If you can find one, read a copy of Jack Tatum's book "They call me Assasin". This stuff has been going on in the NFL for a long long time. Tatum and George Atkinson had contests, complete with a point system including credit for "knockouts", "limp offs" and "season enders". In those days, there were very few rules protecting players. Everything that Tatum did was within the rules at the time. One tecnique he called "the hook", where he kept his upper arm tight against his body with a fist pointed ahead and attempted to catch the reciever's head in the crook of his arm at full speed while swinging his arm forward violently. It was technique he used on Frenchy Fuqua on the Immaculate Reception play. It's also, unfortunately, the move used on Daryl Stingley when Tatum paralysed him.

It's been at least 25 years since I read the book, but I remember it well. It really gives interesting insight on the way the game was back then, and became the basis for many of the rules that exist in the game today. I remember at that age kind of looking up to Tatum and trying to emulate him to some extent when I played. As a player of limited athleticism, I attempted to offset it by hard hitting and intensity. As you get older, your prespective changes, but it will never change the fact that football is a violent game, and to succeed, especially at the NFL level, you have to be as physical as you possibly can- presumably with out crossing the line. This issue will continue for as long as football is around.

You're exactly right Tbone.

At every level players are rewarded for big hits. They are encouraged to hit hard by their coaches, parents, friends, and team mates. All those stickers on high school and college players helmets are not sportsmanship awards. Not all are for big hits but a big hit will get you one and they are worn with pride. It happens at every level and will continue to until the game is not played.

It is also being blown out of proportion by people who do not understand the game.
Non issue as far as I'm concerned.

Look, I played the game. I like to see the game played the right way, which is tough, hard-nosed, and physical.

I am on your side that this thing has grown completely out of proportion due to the idiotic ramblings of people who have no business forming an opinion.

No one is saying that hitting hard is wrong. No one is saying that players getting hurt in the course of legal football play is wrong. If Williams offered up a small monetary reward and bragging rights to a player who knocked the living snot out of a guy and put him out of the game, then more power to him.

What the league is trying to decipher is whether Williams encouraged his players to intentionally hurt opposing players outside the bounds of regular play i.e. late hits, helmet-to-helmet, etc. If it can be proven that he did so, I think a major suspension or banning is in order.

Couldn't agree more 007.

Having played the game you also realize that behavior like what the league is looking into is self regulated on the field by the opposing players and often times their own team mates.

Son got home last night for spring break, this was a hot topic for him, his head coach has ties to Williams.

"Kruse has been fortunate to spend part of the past three summers with the New Orleans Saints Organization under the leadership of Defensive Coordinator Gregg Williams. “Jerod has impressed everyone in our Saints organization with his passion to learn and grow as a coach,” Williams said, “He is a tireless worker to improve his own abilities and all of those around him. Parents will feel very comfortable allowing their sons to play in his program.”

His take on it is that the Saints organization itself funded what ever this was and actually had a line item in the books for "bounty". It's not like anything was being hidden, it was all up front.

Listened to a Cowboy safety from a time gone past explain that every team he has been on has a bounty system. He said that this is the first time he has heard of it being funded by the team, he said the team mates always funded it as far as he knew.

I agree that this is being made out to be made much more than it really is, but in this day and age when former players are suing the NFL for injury issues, including concussions, the league is now backed into a corner where they have to aggressively address these issues or be further exposed liability wise.

Lets not get carried away about the attitude of the NFL towards player safety. They want it to APPEAR that they are concerned.

I am a bit of a "conspiracy theorist" so stick with me on this one. Taking away the kickoff only allowed offenses to take the ball on the 20 more. In turn, this leads to more 80+ yard drives, higher rushing and recieving yards. The NFL makes more money when offensive records are broken and Fantasy Football owners are pumping money into the league.

Sure, the NFL has legislated certain hits, mainly to recievers and QB's. These players are the most popular players. However, the NFL has yet to address easier issues.

For instance, players have the option to choose which brand of helmet they wear every day. Statistics have shown, that for asthetic reasons, a majority of players choose to wear one of the lowest rated helmets in regards to the prevention of concussions. How many players do you see every Sunday who are wearing undersized shoulder pads, or they are missing hip, thigh, and knee pads or not wearing mouthpieces?

Now dont you think if the NFL was serious about the health of players that they would at least mandate that they wear every piece of equipment and force them to wear the equipment which has been shown by testing to be the most safe?????

Also, the NFL only allows NFL veterans to retain their insurance for 3 years. Ironically, statistics have shown that the majority of health problems with former players start around four years.

Hammer has been dropped.

Papa Goodell has given Payton a one year ban.

007, you know you're my boy, but this could put a chink in the thinking that it's all about PR and not truly about safety.

The Saints are America's Cinderella team. They are the team that, if your team is out of the hunt, you can find good reason to get behind them. Likeable face of the franchise Drew Breese, great story of perseverance through adversity in the years after Katrina, high powered offense that's fun to watch, and a charismatic, young, good looking head coach. It's an easy sell.

This move could effectively cripple the franchise however. Every team goes through cycles, some longer than others, and windows will inevitably close. This could basically kick start New Orleans’s dissension back down, while they should still be at their peak. That’s not good for NO or the NFL. But it had to be done.

Greg Williams (Rams new DC) out of the league indefinately as well. It's pretty late to be looking for a new DC. Hopefully Fisher can come up with a good replacement.

sad day to be a Saints fan... i never really saw the big deal... they paid for hard hits, how is that any different than a sticker on the back of the helmet in college? they didn't say "go play dirty and hurt these guys" they just said "knock their d***s in the dirt"... the whole POINT of football is to inflict pain on your opponent... I always strived for the type of hits where snot was bubbling from the nose... all the Saints did was reward them for those type hits

Goodell went WAAAAY too far

2 things,
1) Goodell is playing CYA against lawsuits, lets give them flags and take off the pads...
2) the punishment is actually for lying and trying to cover it up

Nice to see you on the board Sig. You are a straight shooter, and your profession is designed around the well-being of athletes. It also clouds your vision to the fact that not everyone shares your values. Its not a bad thing. Im not a thief, so it took getting stolen from about three times to realize that I needed to lock up my stuff. The fact that you care deeply about your athletes doesnt mean that everyone else does as well.

The NFL and the NCAA realizes that they make money off the talents of their players. They also realize that players are like racehorses. If they cant run fast anymore, they arent worth the food they eat. Its simple economics. If they cant play anymore, then they arent worth a cent so they dont give them another cent after they cant play.

Yall think about this. Interest in the NFL is at an all-time high. Its not a coincedence that Fantasy Football is at an all time high as well. It is also not a coincedence that the rules have changed and in one year, 5 quarterbacks threw for over 5,000 yards (a stat that used to be unheard of). The NFL frowns upon violent collisions, yet they sell Greatest Hits DVD's. Its the very definition of hypocrasy.

I also find it a coincedence that both the NFL and the NFL PA agree that ex NFL players need insurance and help with medical bills and rehabilitation, yet neither organization is willing to pay for it. See, it looks good on paper and in the media, but when the dollar amount gets added to it, no one will pony up.

"Cart off hit"

So if somebody makes a hit that causes another person to get "carted off", should that person be punished? Some defensive players dream game is that everybody they hit gets carted off.
Should hard hits not be encouraged? Just hit them hard enough to tackle them without hurting them, never more or it's a fine.

Put away the pads and lets get out the flags. The FFL.

Cart off hit refers to the coaching staff encouraging hits that would end up with opposing players being carted off. Encouraging the maming of other players is not right.

This is a great game that is inherently violent even when played within the rules.

Sodak you are putting words into my mouth, at worst. At best you just didn't understand where I was coming from.

I was never the most talented player on the field. But I played with an intensity and mindset that could match up with the most fierce players in the game. I was also disciplined and did what I was told by my coaches. If a coach were to tell me to go out and injure another player, I probably would've done it. And there's absolutely no place for that type of play or coaching.

As I said before, this game is plenty violent within the boundaries of the rulebook. There's no need to add an eliment of a head hunter to it.

Sorry, didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

I just find it very hard to believe that an added few hundred dollars to a guy making millions makes any difference at all about how they play the game.

I also still believe the penalties in this case are about the NFL posturing to defend itself from law suits with the main reason being that the coaches in trouble lied about it over and over to the NFL. This was known for over a year possibly 2 and they were told to stop and they said they had and then lied about it. Had they actually stopped the first time, nothing would have happened and we never would have heard about it.

Frankly I was stunned. After a couple of days of digesting it I think it was the right thing to do. Too bad for the Saints, but a lesson has been learned here. Keep it above board and these things won't happen. A team's make-up and personality start at the top. Except the Raiders who put on make-up and have no personality.

Sodak is right in the fact that this is more of an issue of compliance with the league office than drawing a line between bounties for legal and illegal hits.

What I have learned is that, the issue isnt whether Williams is on moral trial or not, this is an issue of the league becoming aware that this was happening, giving the Saints a warning that this wouldnt be tolerated, and the follow-up investigation showed that it was still happening. ,The suspensions were less in my opinion, having to do with the actual crime, but the refusal to comply with league rules.

So the recording of Williams in the locker room just totally destroys everything he's done, right?